Comments for Agnostic Universe http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog Agnostic Universe Blog - Unknown IS the Answer Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:47:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.1 Comment on Militant Agnostics and Atheists by John Wylie http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/2011/12/18/militant-agnostics-and-atheists/comment-page-1/#comment-1910 John Wylie Tue, 24 Jan 2012 04:47:26 +0000 http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/?p=847#comment-1910 I appreciate your tolerance and moderation. You might be interested in my blog, apesandantsandancestors.wordpress.com - john I appreciate your tolerance and moderation. You might be interested in my blog, apesandantsandancestors.wordpress.com – john

]]> Comment on An Agnostic Creator Hypothesis by Norman Lycan http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/2011/06/06/an-agnostic-creator-hypothesis/comment-page-1/#comment-1888 Norman Lycan Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:41:46 +0000 http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/?p=804#comment-1888 While myths of many civilizations claim that various gods exerted their wills upon many stories of human heroism and destruction, the bottom line is that religion has been the source of psuedo leaders, appointing themselves as intermediaries between god and man. Their purpose was not to enlighten us in the absense of science, it was to enslave us with religious brainwash. It is the difference between religious mythology and scientific fact that sets freethinkers free. One is intended to enslave the mind, the other to free the mind to reality, math, reason. One would capitalize on your fear of death, which is coming regardless, the other would appeal to you sense of reason. But, can your sense of reason be seduced to believe the universe exploded out of nothing? In the absense of evidence, "I don't know" is the only sane response. Agnostics are the genuine freethinkers. NL While myths of many civilizations claim that various gods exerted their wills upon many stories of human heroism and destruction, the bottom line is that religion has been the source of psuedo leaders, appointing themselves as intermediaries between god and man. Their purpose was not to enlighten us in the absense of science, it was to enslave us with religious brainwash. It is the difference between religious mythology and scientific fact that sets freethinkers free. One is intended to enslave the mind, the other to free the mind to reality, math, reason. One would capitalize on your fear of death, which is coming regardless, the other would appeal to you sense of reason. But, can your sense of reason be seduced to believe the universe exploded out of nothing? In the absense of evidence, “I don’t know” is the only sane response. Agnostics are the genuine freethinkers.

NL

]]> Comment on Let Me Rephrase That… by Norman Lycan http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/2011/06/19/let-me-rephrase-that/comment-page-1/#comment-1887 Norman Lycan Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:53:58 +0000 http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/?p=811#comment-1887 I disagree with you. As an unbeliever, I used to caucus with atheists. As you imply, some are like us, agnostics, who choose to lean toward atheism because it discounts religious mythology. The rub that I have encountered over and over again in debates with atheists, is that I am accused of intellectual cowardice, if I fail to acknowledge that the universe is an accident. Some are quite brutal in their criticism. But, the chemical science of our universe is undeniable, as the universe exists right now, something cannot be created out of nothing. The rational theory is that nothing was forced apart into negative and positive. The most plentiful element in the universe is hydrogen, one electron, one proton. Zero ripped in half. Something out of nothing. But, science still must explain the force that ripped zero apart. And there is no reason to believe that that force, whatever it might be, interferes with the random fall of circumstance. Consideration of the eons of life on this planet, how ecosystems have come and disappeared show conclusively that while some force might have set the universe in motion, it does not interfere in the outcome. In fact, on that vein, I could not dismiss the idea that the spark expended his entire being to create the big bang, and now he is dead. Therefore, we alone and adrift. But, that certainly does not make it true. That's why, a real freethinker is neither a creationist nor an atheist. He, she, is person who has the clarity of thought to admit that they do not know. That is honesty, and humility. It is freethought. Norman Lycan I disagree with you. As an unbeliever, I used to caucus with atheists. As you imply, some are like us, agnostics, who choose to lean toward atheism because it discounts religious mythology. The rub that I have encountered over and over again in debates with atheists, is that I am accused of intellectual cowardice, if I fail to acknowledge that the universe is an accident. Some are quite brutal in their criticism. But, the chemical science of our universe is undeniable, as the universe exists right now, something cannot be created out of nothing. The rational theory is that nothing was forced apart into negative and positive. The most plentiful element in the universe is hydrogen, one electron, one proton. Zero ripped in half. Something out of nothing. But, science still must explain the force that ripped zero apart. And there is no reason to believe that that force, whatever it might be, interferes with the random fall of circumstance. Consideration of the eons of life on this planet, how ecosystems have come and disappeared show conclusively that while some force might have set the universe in motion, it does not interfere in the outcome. In fact, on that vein, I could not dismiss the idea that the spark expended his entire being to create the big bang, and now he is dead. Therefore, we alone and adrift. But, that certainly does not make it true. That’s why, a real freethinker is neither a creationist nor an atheist. He, she, is person who has the clarity of thought to admit that they do not know. That is honesty, and humility. It is freethought.

Norman Lycan

]]> Comment on A Message From God by Norman Lycan http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/2011/12/04/a-message-from-god/comment-page-1/#comment-1463 Norman Lycan Thu, 08 Dec 2011 04:38:26 +0000 http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/?p=842#comment-1463 Jeff, While your quote would really resonate with your typical unbeliever, as it did with me (I am sarcastic about the premise of the knowledge of the ancient gods), it does little, in my opinion, to set agnostism apart as the voice of reason. And, this is why I say that. While it is true that myths like the age of the earth is six thousand years, or that every species on dry land was saved on Noah's Ark are ludicrous, beyond reach of reasonable objective thought, there is a flip side of that coin. And while websites, like this one: http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/02/can_you_get_something_for_noth.php claim that something infinitesimal can be created from nothing, I will quote their disclaimer: "But there are many things we can't do, either practically or theoretically: violate charge or energy conservation, decrease the total entropy of the Universe, or figure out where our initially inflating Universe came from." Chemistry knows that the universe is stable. No matter which chemical reaction occurs, that not one atom is created nor lost. The energy released by dividing elements that exist in compounds, can reunite them if equal energy is reintroduced to the equation. Even nuclear fusion and fision neither creates or destroys anything, It simply releases the energy that previously bound or separated subatomic particles. So, the idea, given our present scientific understanding, that the universe exploded into existence out of nothing, is worthy of suspicion. As well, an objective thinker must also consider the convenience factor. If you were on a jury, which we all are, does it really make sense that not only did our entire unimaginably huge universe explode into existence out of nothing, it also contained the magic seed of, not only life, but of evolution. A self improving machine with no remorse or pity. But, if there are an infinite number of dimensions, across infinite time, and billions of explosions of universes out of nothing, for reasons we don't yet understand, I can certainly concede that our universe, and our world, and our conversation could occur. I'm glad to be here, but, it's been a wild ride. For me, for what it's worth, when I examine what I have learned in my life, a realization dawns upon me. That if there is a creator, a SPARK of life, he planted the seed, then set back in his easy chair to watch what happens. Millions of years of evolution built the dinosaurs. They are gone, and no one is sure why. And that's just recent history. Extrapolating upon those realities, I think one can conclude that praying to the creator about your adultrous daydreams or your late rent is wasted bandwidth. He doesn't even care about global extinctions, let alone your pathetic neurosis. Norman Lycan Jeff,
While your quote would really resonate with your typical unbeliever, as it did with me (I am sarcastic about the premise of the knowledge of the ancient gods), it does little, in my opinion, to set agnostism apart as the voice of reason.
And, this is why I say that. While it is true that myths like the age of the earth is six thousand years, or that every species on dry land was saved on Noah’s Ark are ludicrous, beyond reach of reasonable objective thought, there is a flip side of that coin.
And while websites, like this one: http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/02/can_you_get_something_for_noth.php claim that something infinitesimal can be created from nothing, I will quote their disclaimer:
“But there are many things we can’t do, either practically or theoretically: violate charge or energy conservation, decrease the total entropy of the Universe, or figure out where our initially inflating Universe came from.”
Chemistry knows that the universe is stable. No matter which chemical reaction occurs, that not one atom is created nor lost. The energy released by dividing elements that exist in compounds, can reunite them if equal energy is reintroduced to the equation. Even nuclear fusion and fision neither creates or destroys anything, It simply releases the energy that previously bound or separated subatomic particles.
So, the idea, given our present scientific understanding, that the universe exploded into existence out of nothing, is worthy of suspicion. As well, an objective thinker must also consider the convenience factor. If you were on a jury, which we all are, does it really make sense that not only did our entire unimaginably huge universe explode into existence out of nothing, it also contained the magic seed of, not only life, but of evolution. A self improving machine with no remorse or pity.
But, if there are an infinite number of dimensions, across infinite time, and billions of explosions of universes out of nothing, for reasons we don’t yet understand, I can certainly concede that our universe, and our world, and our conversation could occur. I’m glad to be here, but, it’s been a wild ride.
For me, for what it’s worth, when I examine what I have learned in my life, a realization dawns upon me. That if there is a creator, a SPARK of life, he planted the seed, then set back in his easy chair to watch what happens. Millions of years of evolution built the dinosaurs. They are gone, and no one is sure why. And that’s just recent history.
Extrapolating upon those realities, I think one can conclude that praying to the creator about your adultrous daydreams or your late rent is wasted bandwidth. He doesn’t even care about global extinctions, let alone your pathetic neurosis.

Norman Lycan

]]> Comment on Gretchen Whitmer, Michigan Senator, slams new bullying legislation by Norman Lycan http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/2011/11/05/gretchen-whitmer-michigan-senator-slams-new-bullying-legislation/comment-page-1/#comment-1392 Norman Lycan Wed, 30 Nov 2011 03:42:05 +0000 http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/?p=838#comment-1392 Agnostism, the Purest Form of Freethought Ah, freethought. Freethinkers, who are they? Websters says: "one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially: one who doubts or denies religious dogma". http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freethinker BUT!!! freedictionary says: "One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and SPECULATION." http://www.thefreedictionary.com/freethinker Really? I would define a freethinker as: "Someone who refuses to adopt as belief anything that cannot be convincingly supported by evidence." And that would include all ancient goatherder mythologies: Horace, Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, Thor, Jehovah, Allah, Albiorix, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammed, etc. First because belief in the truth of these deities is directly dependant upon which brainwash was inflicted upon you by your parents. Secondly, scientific evidence of the existence of any of these deities does not exist. Thirdly, because in the absense of scientific knowledge, these myths were obviously perpetrated by fakers and witchdoctors to solidify political power, rivaling kings and warlords, while preying upon uneducated human questions, "why am I here?" and "what is the meaning of life?" And while I think that atheists, in general, should be considered fellow freethinkers, humanists as well, my interactions with them have revealed that among their ranks are antisemitists, conspiracy theorists and people who think that those who are victimized by religion are getting what they deserve, because they are stupid. Well, as a person who spent years escaping the brainwash my parents put in my head, I say, that's not freethought, it's another form of hatred. In debates I have had in the past with atheists, the point has been brought up that there is a subtle difference between "not believing in god" and "believing there is no god". I agree. But here's the rub. Those who do not believe in god are not atheists, they are agnostics, whether they like it or not. Those who believe there is no god, the universe is an accident, no spark of life, no order out of chaos, they have formed a new religion. They have chosen to adopt as a belief, that which has yet to be proven by science. Last point. On the world stage, atheists are seen as the devil's tool. Agnostics are seen as afraid or incapable of making a choice. Well, Jeff, your posts to date have demonstrated to my satifaction that you understand that freethought is not just about religion, it's about every facit of life. But, if I make this post too long, no one will read it. NL Agnostism, the Purest Form of Freethought

Ah, freethought. Freethinkers, who are they? Websters says: “one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially: one who doubts or denies religious dogma”. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freethinker
BUT!!! freedictionary says: “One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and SPECULATION.” http://www.thefreedictionary.com/freethinker
Really? I would define a freethinker as: “Someone who refuses to adopt as belief anything that cannot be convincingly supported by evidence.”
And that would include all ancient goatherder mythologies: Horace, Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, Thor, Jehovah, Allah, Albiorix, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammed, etc. First because belief in the truth of these deities is directly dependant upon which brainwash was inflicted upon you by your parents. Secondly, scientific evidence of the existence of any of these deities does not exist. Thirdly, because in the absense of scientific knowledge, these myths were obviously perpetrated by fakers and witchdoctors to solidify political power, rivaling kings and warlords, while preying upon uneducated human questions, “why am I here?” and “what is the meaning of life?”
And while I think that atheists, in general, should be considered fellow freethinkers, humanists as well, my interactions with them have revealed that among their ranks are antisemitists, conspiracy theorists and people who think that those who are victimized by religion are getting what they deserve, because they are stupid. Well, as a person who spent years escaping the brainwash my parents put in my head, I say, that’s not freethought, it’s another form of hatred.
In debates I have had in the past with atheists, the point has been brought up that there is a subtle difference between “not believing in god” and “believing there is no god”. I agree. But here’s the rub. Those who do not believe in god are not atheists, they are agnostics, whether they like it or not. Those who believe there is no god, the universe is an accident, no spark of life, no order out of chaos, they have formed a new religion. They have chosen to adopt as a belief, that which has yet to be proven by science.
Last point. On the world stage, atheists are seen as the devil’s tool. Agnostics are seen as afraid or incapable of making a choice. Well, Jeff, your posts to date have demonstrated to my satifaction that you understand that freethought is not just about religion, it’s about every facit of life. But, if I make this post too long, no one will read it.

NL

]]> Comment on Gretchen Whitmer, Michigan Senator, slams new bullying legislation by Norman Lycan http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/2011/11/05/gretchen-whitmer-michigan-senator-slams-new-bullying-legislation/comment-page-1/#comment-1283 Norman Lycan Wed, 09 Nov 2011 02:40:19 +0000 http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/?p=838#comment-1283 JM said: "Faith that homosexuality is a sin does not require religion to justify it. " I think that might be true, but it becomes difficult to measure. I had a gay roommate for a year or so. Though I am not gay, he picked me out of dire straights and gave me breathing room to get back on my feet. I met all of his friends and I liked most of them. Of course, some of them were pricks. It's a cross section of humanity, regardless of social group. My point is that some of the circle were "flamers" with the affeminate mannerisms and the hightop leather boots. I found their company "uncomfortable". Worse was two guys making out on the couch. I didn't need to see that!!!! But to JM's point, as a person raised in a fundamentalist christian family, even in retrospect, I can't be sure how much those feelings are natural, or crap put in my head by religious brainwash. When I went to school, the unspoken, unwritten rule was "boys will be boys, and as such will establish a pecking order among themselves, and occasionally violence will erupt". And I realize that in nature that a member of a pack is often killed for being weak or injured, and unable to fulfil it's role. But, it seems like humans are reaching for some higher order of protocol. That the weak and defenseless are protected by society. And beyond that, science has established that homosexuality exists among many species, often serving the role of parents to orphins. So, my point would be to JM is that the greatest obstacle to humans opening their eyes and accepting gays as a part of nature is religious prejudice. But, to be fair, he said: "Hatred or dislike or prejudice against homosexuals is no different than racism" Agreed. But, I would remind you the debate is being kept alive by religious zealots. Freethinkers are ready to move on. Norm JM said:

“Faith that homosexuality is a sin does not require religion to justify it. ”

I think that might be true, but it becomes difficult to measure. I had a gay roommate for a year or so. Though I am not gay, he picked me out of dire straights and gave me breathing room to get back on my feet. I met all of his friends and I liked most of them. Of course, some of them were pricks. It’s a cross section of humanity, regardless of social group.

My point is that some of the circle were “flamers” with the affeminate mannerisms and the hightop leather boots. I found their company “uncomfortable”. Worse was two guys making out on the couch. I didn’t need to see that!!!! But to JM’s point, as a person raised in a fundamentalist christian family, even in retrospect, I can’t be sure how much those feelings are natural, or crap put in my head by religious brainwash.

When I went to school, the unspoken, unwritten rule was “boys will be boys, and as such will establish a pecking order among themselves, and occasionally violence will erupt”. And I realize that in nature that a member of a pack is often killed for being weak or injured, and unable to fulfil it’s role. But, it seems like humans are reaching for some higher order of protocol. That the weak and defenseless are protected by society. And beyond that, science has established that homosexuality exists among many species, often serving the role of parents to orphins.

So, my point would be to JM is that the greatest obstacle to humans opening their eyes and accepting gays as a part of nature is religious prejudice. But, to be fair, he said:

“Hatred or dislike or prejudice against homosexuals is no different than racism”

Agreed. But, I would remind you the debate is being kept alive by religious zealots. Freethinkers are ready to move on.

Norm

]]> Comment on Gretchen Whitmer, Michigan Senator, slams new bullying legislation by John Myste http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/2011/11/05/gretchen-whitmer-michigan-senator-slams-new-bullying-legislation/comment-page-1/#comment-1281 John Myste Tue, 08 Nov 2011 23:44:43 +0000 http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/?p=838#comment-1281 Faith that homosexuality is a sin does not require religion to justify it. Hatred or dislike or prejudice against homosexuals is no different than racism, and we should have no more or less protections against it. Faith that homosexuality is a sin does not require religion to justify it.

Hatred or dislike or prejudice against homosexuals is no different than racism, and we should have no more or less protections against it.

]]> Comment on Gretchen Whitmer, Michigan Senator, slams new bullying legislation by Norman Lycan http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/2011/11/05/gretchen-whitmer-michigan-senator-slams-new-bullying-legislation/comment-page-1/#comment-1276 Norman Lycan Tue, 08 Nov 2011 02:45:37 +0000 http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/?p=838#comment-1276 Jeff, To quote the threadhead: …THIS SECTION DOES NOT PROHIBIT A STATEMENT OF A SINCERELY HELD RELIGIOUS BELIEF OR MORAL CONVICTION. Now the law would have done nothing for the kid this bill was actually named after if the bullies claim they were making anti-homosexual statements based on sincerely held religious belief. I object to all mythology, and the cave dweller mentallity it reflects, I side with you that the wording hands a free pass to those who feel strongely because of religious reasons that these persons deserve to be abused. I see no margin between this definition and the KKK that made it clear that a nigger should know his place. The same calibre of thought put the Jews in the showers in Nazi Germany. That's why religion and the amoebas that can believe that insanity should have no voice in social decisions. Wish us luck on that. Norm Jeff,

To quote the threadhead: …THIS SECTION DOES NOT PROHIBIT A STATEMENT OF A SINCERELY HELD RELIGIOUS BELIEF OR MORAL CONVICTION.

Now the law would have done nothing for the kid this bill was actually named after if the bullies claim they were making anti-homosexual statements based on sincerely held religious belief.

I object to all mythology, and the cave dweller mentallity it reflects, I side with you that the wording hands a free pass to those who feel strongely because of religious reasons that these persons deserve to be abused. I see no margin between this definition and the KKK that made it clear that a nigger should know his place.

The same calibre of thought put the Jews in the showers in Nazi Germany. That’s why religion and the amoebas that can believe that insanity should have no voice in social decisions. Wish us luck on that.

Norm

]]> Comment on Wishing Us God Bless You by Norman Lycan http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/2011/09/01/wishing-us-god-bless-you/comment-page-1/#comment-1275 Norman Lycan Tue, 08 Nov 2011 01:56:23 +0000 http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/?p=832#comment-1275 Jeff, Upon rereading my post, it seems short and devoid of explanation. So, let me make a more intelligent response. For the most part, atheists are the closest thing to a peer group that I have. But, not long after interacting with sites like American Atheists, and The Freethinker (UK) , I found that among atheists are anti semitists, conspiricy theorists, and people who think that a failure adopt a belief that the universe is an accident are "fundies". The idea of doubt while the puzzle is solved offends them, and many are less than polite in their rhetoric. To me, the idea that the revelation that religion is false proves that the universe is an accident is ludicrous. It's a huge leap of faith, the accusation they make against the faithful. The most basic law of chemistry is that you never get something for nothing. You can burn a log on the campfire, and the energy is released as heat, but that energy came from the sun and from decomposing orgainic material in the soil. That energy is released by oxidation, but, not a single atom is lost or created. The universe as it exists now is stable. The idea that this incomprehensably enormous universe sprung into existence out of nothing defies all laws of physics and chemistry. But, given our level of understanding, we cannot call it impossible, unless we abandon our resolve doubt all that is unproven. But, place upon that, the reality that life emerges where conditions allow, that becomes an extremely convenient accident. But, evolution spent millions of years building the dinosaurs, and while there are many theories about their demise, millions of years of evolution was erased. The age of the mammals began. No one stepped in to stop the waste. On that basis, I conclude that if there is something out there that set this universe in motion, he doesn't listen to prayers, and if humanity goes extinct, evolution will try again, it is unstopable. It never quits. I know you are a freethinker. My last response sucked, sorry. Norm Jeff,

Upon rereading my post, it seems short and devoid of explanation. So, let me make a more intelligent response. For the most part, atheists are the closest thing to a peer group that I have. But, not long after interacting with sites like American Atheists, and The Freethinker (UK) , I found that among atheists are anti semitists, conspiricy theorists, and people who think that a failure adopt a belief that the universe is an accident are “fundies”. The idea of doubt while the puzzle is solved offends them, and many are less than polite in their rhetoric.

To me, the idea that the revelation that religion is false proves that the universe is an accident is ludicrous. It’s a huge leap of faith, the accusation they make against the faithful. The most basic law of chemistry is that you never get something for nothing. You can burn a log on the campfire, and the energy is released as heat, but that energy came from the sun and from decomposing orgainic material in the soil. That energy is released by oxidation, but, not a single atom is lost or created. The universe as it exists now is stable. The idea that this incomprehensably enormous universe sprung into existence out of nothing defies all laws of physics and chemistry. But, given our level of understanding, we cannot call it impossible, unless we abandon our resolve doubt all that is unproven.

But, place upon that, the reality that life emerges where conditions allow, that becomes an extremely convenient accident. But, evolution spent millions of years building the dinosaurs, and while there are many theories about their demise, millions of years of evolution was erased. The age of the mammals began. No one stepped in to stop the waste. On that basis, I conclude that if there is something out there that set this universe in motion, he doesn’t listen to prayers, and if humanity goes extinct, evolution will try again, it is unstopable. It never quits.

I know you are a freethinker. My last response sucked, sorry.

Norm

]]> Comment on Wishing Us God Bless You by Norman Lycan http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/2011/09/01/wishing-us-god-bless-you/comment-page-1/#comment-1271 Norman Lycan Mon, 07 Nov 2011 01:48:07 +0000 http://agnosticuniverse.org/blog/?p=832#comment-1271 Jeff, You may call these kind words, but that is moot. I did not come here to massage your ego. I have made it as clear as I can, that I wish to advance the real scientific agenda. That you cannot prove that the universe is an accident, and therefore, atheism is a religion. Prove me wrong. I don't know Jeff,

You may call these kind words, but that is moot. I did not come here to massage your ego. I have made it as clear as I can, that I wish to advance the real scientific agenda. That you cannot prove that the universe is an accident, and therefore, atheism is a religion.

Prove me wrong.

I don’t know

]]>