The Golden Rule
Standards of good are human standards that don’t come from a god. “You have to share in my religion to be considered good” is such a ridiculous notion. I’ve visited Japan and it’s a country with amazing people that I would point to as an excellent example of an overall good society. Yet, the majority of Japanese are increasingly secular and follow no religion. They keep associations with Shinto and Buddhism as a matter of tradition rather than belief.
Article 20 of their 1947 Constitution states:
“Freedom of religion is guaranteed to all. No religious organization shall receive any privileges from the State, nor exercise any political authority”
Well, doesn’t that sound familiar? Separation of religion and the state was mandated by the occupation of Japan because of the role of State Shinto in furthering Japan’s military aggression in Asia before and during World War II. Isn’t that a fair warning for maintaining a seperation of church and state? It’s sad that many Christians and Muslims would look at Japan and the religion of the people to say that the country is worthless and immoral based solely on their belief. However, in my short visits I found the country to be nicer and safer than many areas of the United States. Nobody has a monopoly on “being good” based upon their primitive religions.
October 3rd, 2010 at 6:55 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Ailed J, Jeff. Jeff said: Agnostic Universe Blog post: The Golden Rule http://bit.ly/cc4X6l #agnostic #atheist #religion #morality [...]
October 8th, 2010 at 4:50 pm
Just discovered this blog and have thoroughly enjoyed much of its entries. Hope to see continued work by the author!
October 15th, 2010 at 1:30 am
To determine verticality, one uses a plumb line, which is a string with a metal weight at one end that, when suspended, points directly towards the earth’s centre of gravity. Likewise, to determine “good”, one needs a standard of good. Human beings cannot be counted on to determine the universal standard of good because, in their natural state, they only look after their own self-interest and act accordingly. Therefore, one must refer to the absolute “good”, which comes from God.
October 15th, 2010 at 9:42 am
Boswell, you definitely miss the point of the post and the cartoon. By your standard then Japanese society is not good at all because I’m guessing they don’t share in your god belief. I challenge you to visit countries that have beliefs counter to your own and judge them as inherently evil. Look at the cartoon and see the same example of the golden rule standard of good repeated over and over in various religious teachings including those without a relationship to the Judeo-Christian god. The common element in formulating these ideas is humanity, not god.
Your first flaw is to insist that in our natural state we ONLY look after our own self-interest. Without god, would you really? Would you really not love your own children without a god? Is it god that compels you to lend someone a hand when they trip and fall? I don’t know your god and don’t believe in whatever you claim your god has decreed as the laws of good and yet my life is not centered on my self-interest.
October 19th, 2010 at 3:57 am
It is very interesting to open such a discussion with the assumption that “good” comes from some sort of human standard rather than a God-standard. What is the definition of “good” in your opinion, Jeff? It seems that this post assumes that all religions have one standard of good, whereas the rest of humanity has another. That thought-process completely contradicts the cartoon provided to lighten the block post. Christianity holds to one standard, naturalists hold to another, Muslims another, and so on. If humanity sets its own standard of good, who is to judge between the opposing viewpoints that are bound to present themselves? It is also interesting that the Japanese people, in your opinion, are good whereas the American people are not. What makes them good? What makes Americans “not” good? Regardless of whether or not I agree with this assumption, what is your standard? I assure you that not all will agree with your standard. Lastly, not all religions believe that by ascribing to one particular religion “good” is imputed. For one, Christianity holds that no one is good, and even after placing faith in Jesus Christ, goodness is not found in us. The only good that can be found is the good of the deity, Christ. I would not argue that I am good because I hold to Christianity. I would not argue that you are evil because you don’t. I would argue that you and I are both evil, but goodness can be ascribed to us because of Christ. That is my standard. What is your standard? We all have one, but simply providing “humanity” as the ultimate standard just will not cut it. Humans will disagree at some point, so this does not hold up.
October 19th, 2010 at 10:37 am
I assume humanity works through our standards of good in any given situation as an imperfect society of fellowship with our laws to guide us. A “standard” is universal and applies to all situations. “Thou shall not kill” is an absolute standard of good that should prevent you from using deadly force as a police officer or defend the country as a military member, but most bible believers judge for themselves when this supposed absolute standard of good actually applies. All religions don’t have a standard of good that contradicts the rest of humanity because it is all of humanity that shares in the universal guide of the “golden rule”. It is just a guide and is not perfect in itself. If I were a twisted individual that enjoyed pain I should not follow “do unto others…” and inflict pain on other people.
It’s funny you think I said Americans are not good and even quote the word “not” as if I said it. Saying a country appears to be nicer and safer than mine doesn’t mean the United States is not also nice and safe. I just said that Japan appeared to be higher on the scale of a “good society.” There isn’t a specific standard for a good society unless you want to try to make something up with crime statistics and the amount of individual freedoms enjoyed by the people if such things can be quantified.
We are all evil? It is the saddest thing for me to read when I come across it and is definitely one big thing I find wrong with religion. I believe most people are good and you believe everyone is evil. We use our inherent good as a society to collectively determine what is good for our societies. It isn’t perfect but our tribes have managed to graduate to governments and laws that work fairly well for some of the basics of good. If someone steals from me or murders my family (we can agree on those being bad, right?) then police, courts, jail, etc. all step in and take care of this. Hopefully the police could step in and prevent murder of my family but taking care of the murderer is the action that stops that person from killing again.
What does religion do in all of this? Here is the religious standard of good and how it operates. We are all evil sinners so religion offers forgiveness for the murderer. If they can only find Jesus then the murderer should be set free to live for Christ and kill again in his next moment of weakness. It’s not his fault because God made us as pure evil. What kind of nonsense is that? I don’t think most people have evil thoughts and urges. Let’s continue down your thought process that the bible is the standard of good. The 10 commandments should become law for this country and our most severe punishments should be for violating them since this is the top 10 list. So if I have another god before your god or create false idols I should be punished more severely than being a murderer if the commandments are ranked in order of importance. I should be punished for the thought crime of coveting. All parents should be honored so I think that does away with child protective services and the crimes of child abuse. These are just some applications of your good from the top of my head.
You are good without god. We are not evil. I don’t need Christ to stop my hand from stealing from you, killing you, or any other evil deed that you think we all are compelled to do since we are evil. Simply providing “Christ” as the ultimate standard just will not cut it. Humans do disagree at many points, and we work through it situation by situation. If it were perfect then one true church would currently rule the world and we’d only need a single priest to serve as judge and jury over all evil deeds. You can ask god and the Pope how well that one works out for us all.
October 19th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
The Ten Commandments definitely provide standards as you suggest; however, these are not the only standards found in Scripture. You mention the “golden rule” as if it is the ultimate standard that all of humanity agrees to follow. Where do you think this “golden rule” came from? Was it a first grade school teacher looking to teach classroom rules to her eager students? This “rule” finds its origin in the Bible, but I doubt that you would agree with that assertion.
You bring up the point of measuring what is good. It seems that the assumption is that all stealing is bad. What about those little boys and girls in third world countries who have been left on their own? Is all killing bad? Sure, if I walk into a grocery store and take the life of someone, I am in the wrong. However, if a man breaks into your house, attempts to take your wife and kids, and then pulls a gun on you, are you required to let this happen? My point is, no, standards are not necessarily universal, and they do not necessarily apply to all situations.
Another interesting point you bring up is evil. It seems that you do not like my view that all men are inherently evil. Your earlier post stated that religions believe a man can be good by ascribing to their beliefs. I argued that Christianity does not do that. Now, you have taken up arms against the assertion that all men are evil. I would continue to argue that your first post assumes something that is not true. Religions don’t necessarily call people to conform to their beliefs to become good. Also, what makes us good? Are we born that way? I would say, no. As a child, I would cry, complain, and fight my parents to get whatever it is that I wanted. If it was more food, I would cry until I got it. If it was a new toy, I would complain that my old toys were not good enough anymore. If I thought I was being disciplined for a poor reason, I would fight with my parents. Even now, when someone cuts me off on the interstate I do not respond in an attitude conformed to a standard of good. With the genocide, sex trade, violence, etc. found in our world, it is hard for me to agree with you that we are “good.”
You rightly assert that religion, at least Christianity, offers forgiveness for murderers. However, for forgiveness to be granted it must be sought out. A person who kills can seek forgiveness, and it may be granted to him or her. The problem with your assumption is that I would not argue that, because this murderer has been granted forgiveness, he or she should be freed to stumble again. Government, law enforcement, and the like are in place to protect us. Sometimes people have the propensity to do certain evil things. Even when forgiveness is given, I believe justice should be served.
It is funny that the commandments you bring up are not reflected in law. What about stealing, killing, bearing false witness? These commandments are found in modern law. It looks like biblical standards do penetrate society at least in part.
What about your idea of perfection? All religions are not perfect because the people in those religions are not perfect, right? If you and I admit that people do evil things, and even though we would argue over the inherent goodness found in people, what is the standard of perfection? Can this standard be determined by imperfect people? You and I are not perfect. Can you or I determine what is perfect? I would argue that there must be a standard of perfection, and that standard is ultimately God. One of the many reasons a priest, pastor, jury, etc. does not serve as the ultimate judge is that he cannot give perfect judgment. What is perfection? How can we measure this perfection?
October 23rd, 2010 at 3:10 am
The Golden Rule came from the minds of humans and has been written many times and many ways. One of those ways was in an ancient text that has become a part of the Bible. It’s a work of humanity and is not from a god.
You’re back and forth on the subject of “good” defined by humanity or a deity. You apparently agree that morality is subjective and situational which means us humans define morality for ourselves depending on our circumstances. There are no universal rules of morality set for us by a deity otherwise you wouldn’t need to bring up a situation in which you would kill as an example of a “good” act of killing in the same way I did without a deity guiding my morality. If morality isn’t black and white as defined by your deity then where is this standard of good you say exists from that deity?
Yes, there are bad people or just bad acts by generally good and decent people, but it doesn’t mean we are collectively bad or evil. You might be a jerk on the highway or a bit of a brat as a child but I’m guessing you generally follow the laws of this country and don’t go around being a jerk 100% of the time just because you can. If you do think you’re a bad person from my standpoint. If we were all bad then the world would be a terrible place of anarchy and misery. It’s not religion that keeps us from that condition, it’s SOCIETY. Society doesn’t need religion to guide or protect us. Nobody has taken the Bible and used it as the single basis for creation of a country. I’m not well-versed on Sharia law but I wouldn’t think every single rule and law appears in the Koran. I’d like to see a country (somewhere else) try to run off of just the Bible so everyone can really see how the Bible is useless for governing human activity.
If God was my parent I’d turn it in to the authorities for abuse. It’s a genocidal maniac that will punish you if you don’t love it. I see in the human instinct an unconditional love of our children no matter what they think of us, yet the egotistical and jealous God commands love and worship? Read the Bible from cover to cover and think of your deity as your actual father on Earth. Is that person really worthy of your unconditional love? Is that really a perfect omnipotent being worthy of worship?
October 23rd, 2010 at 7:30 am
If the standard of good is left into imperfect human hands there will be anarchy. We won’t agree on what is good and what is bad. We can’t measure our progress because each will view his or her own progress differently. It’s interesting that you have such a high view of mankind. I would argue that there are some of us who do indeed act very poorly the majority of the time. You seem to argue we are good at the core, yet sometimes we do bad. How do you know something is bad? Is it because some old man wrote up the Golden Rule as you suggest? I argue that we are all evil, but Jesus Christ provides the opportunity for goodness to be manifested through us. Even those who don’t believe in God practice some good, but this is a result of God’s common grace.
Your thoughts about God are very interesting. God seems to be a divine principal from your viewpoint. Since God is my Father, discipline is a part of my relationship with Him. Just as an earthly parent disciplines his or her children, so does the Heavenly Father. God is jealous, and your assertion of this is correct. God is jealous for us just as a husband is jealous for his bride. The bride is committed to the man, and he alone deserves her romantic affections. In the same way, God is jealous for our affections. God is the ultimate standard of love. He sent His Son to pave a way for us to avoid His wrath. It may seem “mean” that God would pour wrath onto us, but a good judge punishes those who do wrong. Again, humanity is evil. Without rules we would have a chaotic society. God is just, so He punishes us. However, because He loves us so much, He has provided a perfect sacrifice. The sacrifice appeases His wrath. Sure, this may not make perfect sense to you, but it does show how much God loves us.
God is worthy of my love. He made me, set rules to guide me, disciplines me like a good Father, provides a sacrifice for Me to avoid His wrath, allows me to experience mercy and grace each day, etc. Yes, God is worthy of my affections. How is He not perfect? He is, and the bible never contradicts itself when speaking of God’s character (or anything else for that matter).
December 5th, 2010 at 1:45 am
my simple question is where is the beginning? was there ever a beginning if god made us who made god ? Now here is a scientific argument about origins it is proven that the egg came before the chicken. Over time it evolved to what we see now . The existence of the bible or god how do you prove it. Did god make scissors for example. Do scissors cut because we tell them to cut . It takes some time to adjust but live in the footstep of westernization in japan. Does god tell us to kill ourselves does he say to vote for a certain man or women. How do you explain differences in view with your god theory
December 9th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
The golden rule that is been quoted as Jesus saying is the sine qua non of a moral life, for everyone who live in the time of Jesus try to live a life that wants to please God, yet those you are teaches this law are faulty, christ live in accordance to the, he showed us as example by his life, yet to the law is not right to do certain things on sabbath, yet Jesus saw the necessity not heals but to do things are needful on sabbath. This golden rule is to guide our interaction with one another, it is to guide our conscience and moral attitude however this rule is pattern towards our relationship with God; whatever we want God to for us likewise is a determinant of what we do with him: believe him, obey him, trust him and honor him.(John 3:16-18) For as many that trust him we be save and does who disbelieve him we not be saved.
December 11th, 2010 at 7:42 pm
one comment. Some people don’t want to be saved. Leave us alone your religion doesn’t have to take over the world does it. Your religion has been so destructive it has completely demolished or overruled its predecessors. Westernization in Asian countries has destroyed smaller less known religions destruction of cultures, wars, hate. Sieges of Jerusalem burning of temples, killing of heretics. Where in time has your religion not been corrupted and infused with human hate. Stop please just stop enforcing your religions on others. Treasure for some is trash to others. Don’t try to save us leave people alone.